## Re: Martin's pages

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Posted by Savant on December 25, 2000 at 09:51:30: In Reply to: Re: Martin's pages posted by Peter 'Rattacresh' Backes on December 25, 2000 at 06:39:23:

>when I was talking about RFC1855, I didn't want to make it
>a holy grail, but I wanted to show you that you shouldn't
>just write "It's netiquette" when it isn't.

That's what you don't understand. The word 'netiquette' does NOT belong to "RFC1855." It can be used in many ways, including those groups of people who have adapted it for their own needs. I belong to one of those groups.

>There is hardly evidence for your arguments. You write about
>ZDNET and "entire web rings" to be against hotlinking. OK,
>but who says there aren't other people who recognize it *good*
>to do hotlinking?

Find me ONE person who thinks unauthorized hotlinking is GOOD for the internet and I'll find you 1000 people who think it is bad.

>You write "I belong to a group that believes ALL material on
>the internet has an inherent copyright to the author". Believe what
>you want, but you are 100% wrong. I can give you the evidence
>that there is in fact a lot of public domain on the Internet.

In comparison to COPYWRITED works, "public domain" works represent a small fraction of the overall total. Do they exist? Of course, but that is the exception and not the rule. You should know this.

>All I can say about this senseless discussion is that you have
>misunderstood the spirit of the Internet. I can hardly imagine
>that you have been on the net for 20 years.

It's the reason that people like myself HAVE been involved in the Internet so long that it hasn't degraded into complete and utter anarchy.

Some people would like to see there be NO controls on the internet, but that is simply unrealistic. People don't have enough self-control for that to ever happen.

>All your arguments,
>might they be right or wrong, will not change my opinion.

Nor will your arguments change my opinion, or the opinion of others who feel the same way. (including 3 system administrators who I asked for an opinion and they back me up 100%. Collectively they work for companies that have over 850,000 paying subscribers)

You never answered my question though. What would you do if I had an RFC published that stated it is bad 'netiquette' to download large web sites without permission? Would you abide by that?

Somehow I doubt it.

>: Although the online protection of intellectual property is
>: still being developed, the fact that WIPO can now order the
>: change of ownership for domain names that violate another
>: person's rights is promising.
>
>Now you show your true face. I think I don't need to comment
>this.

You're right. It DOES show my true face. I believe in RESPECTING the property of others, something that you obviously do NOT believe in. If anything you have shown YOUR true face, in that you care for no one but yourself. Such a shame.

>: I'm not looking for you to stop what you are doing, I'm just
>: looking for you to show a little respect for other people and
>: ask before you entirely download a large site that may have
>: taken a person MONTHS of hard work to create.
>
>Now I understand why you are against it. Freedom seems to scare
>you. For example the freedom to download an entire page.

Freedom doesn't scare me, but lack of respect for intellectual property does. More and more people have less and less respect for the work of others. Without the protection of intellectual property, the work of the worlds inventors would come to a halt and that would stunt the growth of society as a whole. THAT would scare me.

>Control is what you need. I hope the Internet never becomes what you want
>it to be. EOT.

The more people steal the works of others, the more controls will be placed on the internet until people start respecting the works of others. That much is inevitable. You and others have the POWER to change that, but ONLY if you start respecting the property of others NOW. I don't see that happening however.

When the internet becomes so restrictive that you feel you can do nothing online, remember this conversation, and remember that you had the power to change how you used the internet, and you didn't.

Even though we are diametrically opposed in our opinions, I have the law in principle on my side. Intellectual property rights are something that will NOT go away, and the WIPO is only the beginning of the end to theft of such materials. It may not happen tomorrow, but the pendulum is swinging in my direction, and I don't think even you would deny that.

I'll end this here. Have a happy holiday.

Regards,

Savant

Follow-up Messages:

- Re: Martin's pages Peter 'Rattacresh' Backes 12:20:14 12/25/2000 (0)

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    Comments:

    : >when I was talking about RFC1855, I didn't want to make it
    : >a holy grail, but I wanted to show you that you shouldn't
    : >just write "It's netiquette" when it isn't.

    : That's what you don't understand.  The word 'netiquette' does NOT belong to "RFC1855."  It can be used in many ways, including those groups of people who have adapted it for their own needs.  I belong to one of those groups.

    : >There is hardly evidence for your arguments. You write about
    : >ZDNET and "entire web rings" to be against hotlinking. OK,
    : >but who says there aren't other people who recognize it *good*
    : >to do hotlinking?

    : Find me ONE person who thinks unauthorized hotlinking is GOOD for the internet and I'll find you 1000 people who think it is bad.

    : >You write "I belong to a group that believes ALL material on
    : >the internet has an inherent copyright to the author". Believe what
    : >you want, but you are 100% wrong. I can give you the evidence
    : >that there is in fact a lot of public domain on the Internet.

    : In comparison to COPYWRITED works, "public domain" works represent a small fraction of the overall total.  Do they exist?  Of course, but that is the exception and not the rule.  You should know this.

    : >All I can say about this senseless discussion is that you have
    : >misunderstood the spirit of the Internet. I can hardly imagine
    : >that you have been on the net for 20 years.

    : It's the reason that people like myself HAVE been involved in the Internet so long that it hasn't degraded into complete and utter anarchy.

    : Some people would like to see there be NO controls on the internet, but that is simply unrealistic.  People don't have enough self-control for that to ever happen.

    : >All your arguments,
    : >might they be right or wrong, will not change my opinion.

    : Nor will your arguments change my opinion, or the opinion of others who feel the same way. (including 3 system administrators who I asked for an opinion and they back me up 100%.  Collectively they work for companies that have over 850,000 paying subscribers)

    : You never answered my question though.  What would you do if I had an RFC published that stated it is bad 'netiquette' to download large web sites without permission?  Would you abide by that?

    : Somehow I doubt it.

    : >: Although the online protection of intellectual property is
    : >: still being developed, the fact that WIPO can now order the
    : >: change of ownership for domain names that violate another
    : >: person's rights is promising.
    : >
    : >Now you show your true face. I think I don't need to comment
    : >this.

    : You're right.  It DOES show my true face.  I believe in RESPECTING the property of others, something that you obviously do NOT believe in.  If anything you have shown YOUR true face, in that you care for no one but yourself.  Such a shame.

    : >: I'm not looking for you to stop what you are doing, I'm just
    : >: looking for you to show a little respect for other people and
    : >: ask before you entirely download a large site that may have
    : >: taken a person MONTHS of hard work to create.
    : >
    : >Now I understand why you are against it. Freedom seems to scare
    : >you. For example the freedom to download an entire page.

    : Freedom doesn't scare me, but lack of respect for intellectual property does.  More and more people have less and less respect for the work of others.  Without the protection of intellectual property, the work of the worlds inventors would come to a halt and that would stunt the growth of society as a whole.  THAT would scare me.

    : >Control is what you need. I hope the Internet never becomes what you want
    : >it to be. EOT.

    : The more people steal the works of others, the more controls will be placed on the internet until people start respecting the works of others.  That much is inevitable.  You and others have the POWER to change that, but ONLY if you start respecting the property of others NOW.  I don't see that happening however.

    : When the internet becomes so restrictive that you feel you can do nothing online, remember this conversation, and remember that you had the power to change how you used the internet, and you didn't.

    : Even though we are diametrically opposed in our opinions, I have the law in principle on my side.  Intellectual property rights are something that will NOT go away, and the WIPO is only the beginning of the end to theft of such materials.  It may not happen tomorrow, but the pendulum is swinging in my direction, and I don't think even you would deny that.

    : I'll end this here.  Have a happy holiday.

    : Regards,

    : Savant

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