Posted by Savant on December 23, 2000 at 19:40:51: In Reply to: Re: Martin's pages posted by Peter 'Rattacresh' Backes on December 23, 2000 at 08:26:42:
This is in YOUR own opinion, you do not speak for everyone. Many netiquette sites will mention it. Whether you agree is irrelevant.
: I've been around for about eleven years in the Internet
: scene now and ftp mirrors, archives and private copies of data
: have already been common when I joined it.
We could have a spitting match over experience, yes I was programming computers on punch cards before monitors were invented, and I have been on the net for nearly two decades, but that is beside the point.
The fact is there are people (like myself) that DO consider it BAD NETIQUETTE to copy an entire site without permission. If you disagree, that's fine, it doesn't change the facts.
Unless the site is designed that way, (most are not) then you should ask before you do it. That doesn't mean you have to. A person's manners (or lack thereof) is their own business, not mine.
It's also bad netiquette to type ALL IN CAPS. Does that mean you should act that way? No, you are free to do and act how you like.
: Copying the intire site is not as bad as it seems to be. As I
: would watch anything anyway, it's better to download the whole
: thing once than to watch it today once and tomorrow again.
: 400+ MB surely wouldn't fit into the browser cache.
If a person pays by bandwidth/traffic limit, can you imagine if everyone downloaded the entire site and they were not even LOOKING at most of the material? He would have to pay a LOT of money for something that is not being used. I don't think that is right.
The internet is not 'free'. Everything you do costs MONEY to someone. If you don't care or respect that, fine. However, in MY opinion, to download a site just so you can 'have it' is rude if you do not ask first.
If you want to save files that you are LOOKING at, that's fine, but for LARGE sites, netiquette states you should ASK before you take a copy of the site. If you disagree, that's ok, but it doesn't change the facts.
: If you are referring to copyright and intellectual property
: ("Please only watch the page, but don't copy it!!"): That's not
: the spirit of the Internet and surely wasn't Martin's intention.
Actually, I'm NOT mentioning Martin at all. This is not meant to second guess anyone's intention, it is to inform you of something you were obviously not aware of.
I don't want to bring Martin's name into this discussion. It would not be appropriate. I'm actually thankful you have his data, even if I don't agree with how it was obtained.
: IMHO that is Internet abuse by the movie/music companies.
: Private backup copies are legal anyway, at least in Germany, period.
Well that's a whole other debate. Who's law do we respect? Yours or mine? Yahoo has people who are selling NAZI items on its action site, but that is illegal in GERMANY, France and Italy. So who's laws applies? The law of the person POSTING the data, or the law of the person DOWNLOADING the data?
I say if should be the law of country for the person POSTING the information, not the person downloading it. If you connect to a server in THAT country, you should abide by that country's law. Period.
However that is a debate for another time! :)
: BTW, I generally don't 'just download', I try to
: find out first whether the ISP the site is hosted at has a
: traffic flat rate or not. But to ask anybody to download his
: site is unacceptable.
Well there are many people that disagree, but that is up to you. There is no 'law' that says you can't do it. The basic rule is, "download ONLY what you will use."
There is no 'law' that says you can't hotlink to images on someone else's server, but it is bad netiquette.
That is also why many sites have a robot.txt file, so search engines will only index the pages that the site owner wants to have indexed. Of course the search engine could IGNORE it, but that is also bad netiquette.
All of the above examples are WELL KNOWN, and involve inappropriate use of bandwidth without permission. Downloading an entire site without permission is no different.
: If you don't want your page to be downloaded,
: just don't publish it on the Internet.
A person could also say, if you don't want your music stolen in MP3 form, then don't publish it. That doesn't make the theft any more legitimate.
Regards,
Savant